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  • Flash of Memory
    Flash of Memory closed this thread because:
    Staff Intervened, Policy will not be implemented and underage users WILL be blocked if any admin decides to.
    18:16, October 8, 2016

    Seriously. This rule is extremely contradictory and it's about time we get rid of it. Wikia Staff have emphasized countless times that admins on a local wikia blocking users they highly suspect or have proof to be under 13 has no legal effect despite what everyone on this wikia, apart from me and the staff, believe. The reason that people believe it has a legal effect and is the only way to comply with the TOU, is beyond me and I bet even Topdarlingwh (who has long since quit this wikia) would agree with this. This is a similar proposal as for "Should we allow Fandom pictures?" Underaged users tending to be immature is rather biased and blocking users for being under 13 is likely half the reason for the drama caused from it, such as this, even though 2003 can mean more than the user's birth year (it could just be a ワンピース fan who just so happens to like the year 2003) and the fact that people can be held back and therefore people assume that if someone says they're in middle school, that they are "likely" under 13 and does absolutely nothing but causes drama when someone is brought up to be allegedly under 13 (especially when it's not the case). A bit of research proves that a user named ThatJarofJam was banned here for being underage and the user has created socks and managed to escape from being banned despite the administration clearly knowing the user was under 13 at the time (thanks to Topdarlingwh for some of this info). Heck, I'm 22 and I can still complain that this is defeating the purpose it's there for. This is completely contradicting the purpose that users believe it is serving and the fact that some other big wikias do this means nothing. We should wait until a user is both revealed to be underaged and causing trouble before ever doing anything. In other words, not blocking under-13s unless they are violating policies (but again, not blocking them for being under 13). The problem is the user possessing the user account. Younger kids can also be mature users who don't give out any personal information. A user being under 13 is business for staff to take care of as they're only going to get in trouble if they knowingly allow under 13 users on the site (such as refusing to disable their account after having valid proof they are under 13). I am the same one who has gotten six users (on both Lab Rats and Gamer's Guide wikias) disabled from Wikia as they were 10/11 years old and that is what can be done instead of this entirely contradictory rule that enforces no laws nor violates the TOU to have under 13s on the wikia.

    Refer to this thread in which Wikia staff member Merrystar has replied to ([...] That said, a local block does not "enforce" COPPA; only disabling the account can actually do that, because the problem is having the account at all. If you prefer to ban users that have revealed via chat they are underage on your wiki, that is a decision for you and your community. However, Wikia does not ask admins to police this aspect of our Terms of Use.)

    I am not saying admins should condone TOU violations (as they can be easily brought up to staff), but that blocking under 13 users does not enforce the TOU or COPPA and that the user is still having the account (which is illegal on Wikia's side) and the fact that the problem is not whether the account is usable but whether the account is owned by the individual in any way. We are not violating the TOU by allowing these users on the wikia, the user is. The guidelines say we base it off of the wikia staff's explanation at the thread; aka admitting this rule is contradictory, or mentioning the user can get their account disabled by Wikia.

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    • 15px-Symbol_oppose_vote.svg.pngOppose
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    • I honestly think that it is okay to allow users under 13. It really depends on level of maturity. If they don't vandalize a lot, we'll allow them in here. If they vandalize too much, then we shall block them. But overall, I support repealing the "over 13" rule.

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    • Valkryie247
      Valkryie247 removed this reply because:
      -_-
      23:57, July 2, 2016
      This reply has been removed
    • ThePokémonGamer
      ThePokémonGamer removed this reply because:
      Original comment removed.
      23:59, July 2, 2016
      This reply has been removed
    • It is okay for us to let younger kids on here, because again, how "mature" you think someone is, it's a subjective topic and they should not be blocked unless legally required (in which case, only staff disabling their account is legally required). If they do violate rules besides the one I'm petitioning against here (which their violation of rules is not subjective), then we should ban them, and if they are underaged (with on wikia proof as screenshots can be easily manipulated), we can report to staff and they will disable their accounts. But otherwise, it should not be our job to "witch hunt" for users that are under 13 when our actions do not legally matter. Only the actions of staff, legally matter. ThatJarofJam was harassing users, which is a blockable offense. In his defense, the fact the user was underaged shouldn't have mattered. I'm not saying the user was innocent, just that the user shouldn't be blocked for the part of the equation that the user is under 13.

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    • Agreed.

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    • And one more thing I should add, the law says that Wikia cannot knowingly be collecting personal information from under-13s, not that we can't allow under-13s on here. That's why Wikia's actions matter, not ours.

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    • I believe that people under 13 should be allowed, as long as they are mature and follow the rules.

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    • Madialiano wrote: I believe that people under 13 should be allowed, as long as they are mature and follow the rules.

      Yeah.

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    • Madialiano wrote: I believe that people under 13 should be allowed, as long as they are mature and follow the rules.

      I agree. Many pre-teen users want to have a wonderful experience in any certain wikis or wiki chats.

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    • We best follow the TOU or wikia might make us regret it. I understand that you want to put an end to this, which comes with a minor end for sock-puppetry but for everyone here, please read this before re-thinking anymore seriously hazardous decisions ;-;

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    • Ditto Creeper Bot wrote: We best follow the TOU or wikia might make us regret it. I understand that you want to put an end to this, which comes with a minor end for sock-puppetry but for everyone here, please read this before re-thinking anymore seriously hazardous decisions ;-;

      But get this: the problem isn't us letting the users on the wiki, it's Wikia letting the users sign up under 13 and collecting personal information from them. Even if we block them here, their global account will still be active on other wikias. Even if they globally block them, they'll still have the account, which means Wikia would be violating laws. It's mainly a protection act (although the users here are like 12-15 and even those 10 or 11 are likely just as mature as them, if you know what I mean), so the rules and Wikia are concerned mainly about it being a US law since Wikia is located in America. But it's just like inserting "no copyright infringement intended" on a video on YouTube that you upload with a TV show or song therefore being clear copyright infringement, assuming that has a legal effect. Whether you allege that it is "not intended", you would still be infringing copyright. It's the same as this case. Therefore, we aren't violating any terms by allowing under-13s on the wikia. The user is violating terms, but that can be reported through Special:Contact.

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    • ThePokémonGamer wrote:

      Ditto Creeper Bot wrote: We best follow the TOU or wikia might make us regret it. I understand that you want to put an end to this, which comes with a minor end for sock-puppetry but for everyone here, please read this before re-thinking anymore seriously hazardous decisions ;-;

      But get this: the problem isn't us letting the users on the wiki, it's Wikia letting the users sign up under 13 and collecting personal information from them. Even if we block them here, their global account will still be active on other wikias. Even if they globally block them, they'll still have the account, which means Wikia would be violating laws. Therefore, we aren't violating any terms by allowing under-13s on the wikia. The user is violating terms, but that can be reported through Special:Contact.

      I'm not going to side with anything that ends up in chaos >~<

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    • 15px-Symbol_oppose_vote.svg.pngOppose — One problem I have encountered with users under 13 is immaturity, I do know of some underaged users being able to fit and act the part of regular users but that is rare at best. I also stand by ToU where it claims this is to prevent having young kids make tough choices, Wikia can be extremely stressful, trust me, the past week of being here pretty much 24/7 has wore me down to the bones, if I had to go through that even at 13 I would've been an emotional wreck by now.
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    • 15px-Symbol_support_vote.svg.pngSupport — I wasn't yet thirteen when I first came here. Yet I didn't go around telling everyone and I was treated like any other user. I mean, this rule really doesn't prevent those under thirteen from being on this wikia at all: they can always recreate an account and not tell anyone. This pressures people into being dishonest or secretive.
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    • I support allowing under 13s to access wikia, but this should come with a restroction in itself, which should only allow over 11's to access wikia. The main problem with the current ToU is that there don't seem to be a lot done, apart from a temporary ban (Kittencyat would be one example) and I think the Wiki Community need to seriously clamp down on users being underage. Maturity IS an issue, but for some people, immaturity is a regular thing here (Me for example, although I'm WELL over the age to be here) and I think the main reason that the Wiki experience is ruined is due to immaturity and trolling (as for me, i was wrongly accused, and had to appeal for an unblock) so I think the decision should be taken onboard, but with very strict rules put in place, and very strict users to enforce those rules.

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    • Age is just a number, and therefore is irrelevant to whether the user will be mature. Since the law states the company cannot knowingly store information from under-13s, not that we can't allow them as a wiki, when they know they are, they will just disable the user. We should be fair and wait until they've done something that counts as a real violation of wiki policies. There are several users at the Lab Rats wikia that are mature despite being underaged, and we should not immediately make assumptions once a user is at least assumed to be underaged. Blocking users for being under 13 (biased towards the pure opinion that they might be immature) still causes more drama than it's worth. The reason it appears to cause a lot of drama to allow them is because the wikia is always like this (at least when I was here, don't even get me started about what was happening during Weirdmageddon). And yeah, like B Natural said it, it tends to attract more socks to the wikia (like ThatJarofJam for instance) and people being dishonest about it.

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    • I'm Ok With It!! 
      S2e18 chilling with a duck

      "It's Okay"!

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    • Vanessa5400 wrote:

      I'm Ok With It!! 
      S2e18 chilling with a duck

      "It's Okay"!

      You're brand new here, this being your first edit. Were you recruited from another wikia?

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    • Or they could just... not tell people they're 12. Anyone who lacks the common sense to do that probably shouldn't be here anyway.

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    • Good point. I like to see we're seeing this discussion from a logical point of you (and yes, I am fluent in Ford.) As with my opinion it's to support.

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    • I disagree!!!!!

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    • Um, it's not our rule, it's wikia's rule. We can't change it.

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    • 15px-Symbol_neutral_vote.svg.pngNeutral
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    • 15px-Symbol_oppose_vote.svg.pngOppose — Removing this rule would give this place a safe haven for underaged users, and I don't think we want that.
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    • Flash of Memory wrote:

      15px-Symbol_oppose_vote.svg.pngOppose — Removing this rule would give this place a safe haven for underaged users, and I don't think we want that.

      The law clearly states that Wikia cannot collect personal information from under-13s. This does not refer to people posting personal information on Wikia. Once a user signs up under 13, Wikia is automatically collecting personal information. Therefore, we are allowed to have the users on here on the wikia. Wikia is not allowed to knowingly collect personal information, so they will disable their account and enforce the law AND the TOU. We are doing nothing by blocking them, and once again, how mature you suspect that'll be is pure opinion, as they can be either mature or immature, and age is irrelevant to it. So? Us letting underaged users on here is fine, Wikia refusing to disable their account is not. Therefore, Wikia will disable their account when they receive valid proof a user is underaged. "[...] would give this place a safe haven for underaged users" is irrelevant, because we should not be towards discrimination by blocking a user just because we think 8 is too low of an age and should be discriminated by us blocking them with no effect on the law and is simply biased towards users over 13, and it is as simple as that. If we report them to Wikia, that would not be discrimination as we would actually be getting the law enforced.

      ThePK wrote: Um, it's not our rule, it's wikia's rule. We can't change it.

      Yeah, exactly, we can just stop blocking users for it and Wikia can enforce their rule by disabling the underaged account. We aren't enforcing their rule (which is based on the US law, which we also aren't enforcing by doing it) by blocking users for it and we should stop using their age to determine their behavior.

      It's not "common sense" to blatantly lie on Wikia if the wikia in question does not enforce this clear TOU policy as a contradictory local wikia rule. In fact, just contact Wikia staff and ask them if local admins are required to block users for being under 13 and if they are enforcing the law (as well as serving the purpose of Wikia's rule) by doing that. Get this: us blocking the users has no effect as it is Wikia's rule to enforce. Therefore, we are not required to use this aspect of their TOU as apart of our rules and shouldn't either way. The reason the portion of you who disagree with this think that blocking the users is the only way to comply with (in other words, avoid violating) the TOU, is beyond me, but I understand what point you're trying to get at otherwise. We are not violating the terms of use, in fact the TOU policy that is being violated is between the user and staff, therefore once again, we are not violating the TOU by letting them on here, and should stop trying to be all "OCD" about it by assuming that all the TOU has to be blocked for here. Only disruptions that harm the wikia locally (such as harassment and vandalism [which we should not be biased and assume by blocking the user upon discovery or even being commonly suspected of being under 13, to be how the user will behave], as well as socking to evade the length of the user's actual block and committing fraud by using another account), should be blocked for.

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    • I read that entire post and literally not a single sentence came anywhere close to even resembling a logical thought.

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    • Alpha Hyper Galactic Chaos Burst Infinity EGO Mage wrote: I read that entire post and literally not a single sentence came anywhere close to even resembling a logical thought.

      ??? I don't know what to tell you then. The fact that we are even blocking users (NOT the fact that Wikia disables users) for this reason serves no purpose even in terms of user maturity. Age=/=maturity. Are you saying that we should be blocking for example 11 year old users just because ages under 13 are considered below young and simply discriminate users who simply want to edit here and follow the rules of the wikia? Because everything about us blocking users just because of the TOU is contradictory. For literally the billionth time, we are not violating the TOU nor the law by letting underaged users contribute here. What you are going towards (i.e., blocking users for this) indeed causes drama once a user is suspected to be underaged and users can easily make socks. The rules say to lie about it if a user is underaged and doesn't want to get banned but that goes against the fact that the administration is simply witch hunting for users under 13 which causes more drama than there needs to be. Also, the common belief that it enforces the law is illogical as well. That's like saying if you put "no copyright infringement intended" in the YouTube description of a video that is clearly infringing copyright (such as posting copyrighted TV programs and songs on YouTube), that it means you are not violating the law.

      Simply: It's Wikia's rule, not ours. It's theirs to enforce, not ours. We are not required to enforce it, nor should we have ever. Does this sound logical?

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    • 15px-Symbol_oppose_vote.svg.pngOppose
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    • 15px-Symbol_oppose_vote.svg.pngOppose
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    • 15px-Symbol_neutral_vote.svg.pngNeutral
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    • To clarify: We cannot change Wikia's rules as what it said in the TOU is based on the United States law. We can change this wiki's rules (in other words, the guidelines) by getting enough support votes. As the guidelines stand now, we block users that are under 13 from this wikia.

      Point A: The reason underaged users appear to be immature is because this wikia always has pointless drama (or at least it always had when I was here) and I have not experienced this much of an issue on other wikias with underaged users I reported to staff.

      Point B: We are not required to go by Wikia's global terms of service, we should only go by rules that benefit this wiki. You do know the only reason Wikia puts it as apart of their terms of service is because it's a legal concern, not a maturity concern, right? Since Wikia is hosted in the United States, they must follow all of the U.S. laws, including preventing collection of personal information from those under 13. When an under 13 signs up, they are collecting personal information from them, so blocking them here does not stop the fact that Wikia is collecting personal information from them. Therefore, the only way to effectively enforce the law is to contact Wikia and get them to disable the underaged user's account. Well, as this wikia is a subdomain of Wikia and not a separate site hosted in the U.S., we do not have to worry about letting under 13 users on here as it does not affect their maturity, doesn't violate the TOU, nor does it violate the law. The user isn't doing anything illegal by being on Wikia, nor does blocking them discourage more underaged users (who decide to be rather adamant about wanting to contribute to wikias rather than following the TOU) from coming on Wikia or creating socks after being discovered, Wikia would be doing something illegal, therefore they're responsible for disabling the user's account. We're not legally responsible for anything. Not to mention people can easily fake chat screenshots (by editing the source code where the chat message is stored in inspect element or view source or whatever your browser has it as, and the message is in plain sight rather than being hard coded into the page) and send it to administrators.

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    • 15px-Symbol_oppose_vote.svg.pngOppose — it's Wikia's rule, and we're on Wikia.
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    • Flash of Memory
      Flash of Memory removed this reply because:
      Irrelevant now
      04:02, July 5, 2016
      This reply has been removed
    • Flash of Memory
      Flash of Memory removed this reply because:
      User changed his mind
      04:02, July 5, 2016
      This reply has been removed
    • I've added above, we are not required to make our wiki guidelines go by Wikia's global terms of service, we should only go by local wiki rules that benefit this wiki specifically (such as the common rule against vandalism).

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    • But I still disagreed.

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    • Eh, why not. I really hate to admit this but i am one of the subjects. But i'm still pretty okay, because i'm pret mature for my age.

      Just keep the bad ones out and the good ones in. And also i think i'm gonna git in major trouble by saying this. I am screwed. I sorta just have one prob. They can vandalise the wiki. This is probably going to be my last post. IF i ever get kicked/banned!

      And i will end this too long to read post!

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    • Randomite wrote: Eh, why not. I really hate to admit this but i am one of the subjects. But i'm still pretty okay, because i'm pret mature for my age.

      Just keep the bad ones out and the good ones in. And also i think i'm gonna git in major trouble by saying this. I am screwed. I sorta just have one prob. They can vandalise the wiki. This is probably going to be my last post. IF i ever get kicked/banned!

      And i will end this too long to read post!

      Bud, you're not gonna get banned, you didn't do any vandalism ;3 Just keep in mind, you can get banned for saying it though.

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    • 15px-Symbol_support_vote.svg.pngSupport

      This is a gray area. This rule is jumping to conclusions that everyone under 13 is immature. And this is starting to get illogical now, so please act civil, everyone.

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    • Amerifreedom32706 wrote:

      15px-Symbol_support_vote.svg.pngSupport

      This is a gray area. This rule is jumping to conclusions that everyone under 13 is immature. And this is starting to get illogical now, so please act civil, everyone.

      Yeah, I think this discussion is going too far. This isn't a competition, we're only trying to decide whether we'll stop enforcing a TOU policy as a rule on the wiki. There was this underaged user named ThatJarofJam who had to create socks and users created drama all because of this rule we have locally on the wikia, and that's what this wikia has been when I was still actively editing here. In short, all I'm saying is that it would be common sense to actually report TOU specific (in other words, non wiki specific) violations such as this one to Wikia staff.

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    • ThePokemonGamer, if you ask wikia and they say that it's ok to make our rules such that we allow underage users, we can consider this proposal. As of now, many of us are under the impression that underage users are banned on all wikia sites by default and it is not up to us to determine individual site rules about user age.

      That being said, if you receive written confirmation from staff then I think we as a community can enact whatever the result of this vote may be.

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    • I received a reply:

      "Hi,

      Thanks for contacting Wikia.

      The Terms of Use (http://www.wikia.com/Terms_of_Use) restrict membership to those 13 years of age in order to comply with a federal law called COPPA. (See http://community.wikia.com/wiki/User_blog:Semanticdrifter/Updates_to_COPPA for more info).

      Basically, the law applies to Wikia and says what we can and can't do. We don't ask admins to enforce this aspect of our Terms of Use and we gladly accept any reports of underage users. That said, many communities have local policies and it is not uncommon for them to block directly.

      Best,

      __ Sean M. Wikia Community Support http://community.wikia.com/wiki/User_blog:Semanticdrifter/The_CC-BY-SA_License_and_You http://community.wikia.com/wiki/User_blog:Semanticdrifter/Understanding_Fair_Use

      From https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2oacdIpXYKsLThKVTFmQmFwdWs/view?usp=sharing, which is what I received from them.

      Meaning: They disable and ban underaged users per the Terms of Service to comply with COPPA as a federal law, but they do not require nor ask admins to block the users themselves. Wikis do have local guidelines and the case is that it is not uncommon to run across a wikia where they do this. Otherwise, they do not ask all wikias to do this.

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    • Hi,

      I see lots of confusion here.

      Let me start by saying as clear as I can: You must be at least 13 years of age to edit on Wikia. No "ifs", "ands", or "buts". That is what it says in our Terms of Use (http://www.wikia.com/Terms_of_Use) and that is the rule for our platform.

      Those under 13 are in no way permitted to be on Wikia, ever. Period.

      The question is down to who enforces this rule. We don't ask our Admins to enforce it for us, since it is a matter for Wikia to handle. We ask that any instances of users stating they are underage in violation of our rules are reported to us, so that we can enforce it.

      That doesn't mean that a community can decide to "allow" those under 13 years of age. Just because we don't require Admins to act as enforcers doesn't mean that communities are free to disregard our Terms.

      Those are still the rules. You are actually 100% required to follow them.

      Deciding not to block an underaged user is one thing, but making a policy that underaged users are allowed is absolutely not OK.

      The best policy would be to avoid any and all discussion of birthdays or ages, as the general rule is that you should not share personal information over the internet.

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    • I think that's what it's for. Deciding not to block them.

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    • Terrios528 wrote: I think that's what it's for. Deciding not to block them.

      Yeah. What he's saying is we're not allowed to have a policy where they're allowed on here. In fact I've changed the title to clarify. We should instead not block them here as Wikia will have access their personal information on several other wikias and as apart of the sign up as Wikia requires the user to insert an email address & verify it. That causes them blocking the user locally to be contradictory. According to Ducksoup, apart of enforcing COPPA on Wikia's side means disabling the account. That's what I mean, 'cause blocking here is only going to cause user arguments and drama over certain users being underaged, while having Wikia handle the problem would be better. Again, I'm not to say that we should be condoning TOU violations, as I've said even before Semanticdrifter's post and due to the fact I'm the same user who got like 6 users disabled for violating the TOU as they had admitted on other wikias that they were ten, and I still agree we should let Wikia handle it rather than block here. Underaged users should be remained unblocked locally on a wiki, but if Wikia catches them or a user reports it, that should be the only action taken.

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    • wish this discussion won't happened...

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    • Choong57 wrote: wish this discussion won't happened...

      The show's over so I don't care about being active on this wikia as much.

      And yeah, apart of the section of the Terms of Use is to understand that Wikia is not for people under 13. As Wikia's matter to handle, all I'm proposing is that we stop blocking users here for it just for the sake of it, as only Wikia can effectively handle the problem. However, enforcing it by blocking them doesn't do much as only Wikia can restrict their access to editing globally and the guidelines the admins put (I'm not one of this wikia's admins to clarify, so the wiki's policies have been like this even before I was here) is that they condone underaged users editing as long as they remain dishonest about it, which contradicts the fact that they search for and block users for it.

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    • But what if they are troll users?

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    • 15px-Symbol_oppose_vote.svg.pngOppose — Not sure if I am allowed to vote but this is not really the Gravity Falls Wiki's doing. In fact, it's not even Wikia's. It is the United States law and since Wikia was made in San Francisco, the laws of the US apply to the whole website.
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    • Jackninja5DipperGravityFalls wrote:
      15px-Symbol_oppose_vote.svg.pngOppose — Not sure if I am allowed to vote but this is not really the Gravity Falls Wiki's doing. In fact, it's not even Wikia's. It is the United States law and since Wikia was made in San Francisco, the laws of the US apply to the whole website.

      I agreed.

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    • The problem is that the reason why the rule exists is maturity. But there are mature people under 13, and there are immature people above 13.

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    • I agree with ThatGuy, there are people who are under the age here, but they are very nature and have never broken any rules. Then again, I have a counter-argument against ThatGuy's opinion. Kittencyat was a user here who was discovered to be underage, and she was extremely immature. It's a fact that most people in the pre-teen years are too immature to be here. I agree, some people are mature and deserve to be here, but if Wikia are enforcing otherwise, then we need to just get on with it and listen to them.

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    • We're not allowed to add a policy to this wikia saying they are allowed (as Wikia blocks them globally to enforce the Terms of Use, and disables them to to enforce it legally), but we can just not block them here for being underaged.

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    • ThePokémonGamer wrote: We're not allowed to add a policy to this wikia saying they are allowed (as Wikia blocks them globally to enforce the Terms of Use, and disables them to to enforce it legally), but we can just not block them here for being underaged.

      I know it sounds unfair but that's the law. Not blocking them is virtually the same as allowing them to go on.

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    • Jackninja5DipperGravityFalls wrote:

      ThePokémonGamer wrote: We're not allowed to add a policy to this wikia saying they are allowed (as Wikia blocks them globally to enforce the Terms of Use, and disables them to to enforce it legally), but we can just not block them here for being underaged.

      I know it sounds unfair but that's the law. Not blocking them is virtually the same as allowing them to go on.


      Ah, but it's not in the eyes of the law. We don't have an obligation to report or block them.

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    • Jackninja5DipperGravityFalls wrote:

      ThePokémonGamer wrote: We're not allowed to add a policy to this wikia saying they are allowed (as Wikia blocks them globally to enforce the Terms of Use, and disables them to to enforce it legally), but we can just not block them here for being underaged.

      I know it sounds unfair but that's the law. Not blocking them is virtually the same as allowing them to go on.

      Semanticdrifter said we can't have a policy stating that they're allowed to edit on Wikia. We're just allowed to not block them and make it the responsibility for users to report to Wikia instead. The Spongebob wikia stopped enforcing this rule when the head Administrator was notified in August 2014 that admins are not required to block users for it and the administrator decided they should not use age to determine user behavior.

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    • Agreed

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